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ah yes - but Steve Jobs was a highschool drop out and Bill gates left Harva=
rd in his junior year....
From: c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers
Date: Wed=2C 27 Jul 2011 22:27:18 -0300
Hi Andy=2C
Science is both a body of knowledge and a methodology. It's practitioners a=
re as varied as any other group of people - they are all humans. Some are g=
ood=2C others bad=2C some middle of the road=2C others mediocre. Others are=
unjustifiably beaten into submission by political masters who tell them wh=
at to do and say in the name of political objectives. As a human activity=
=2C it is liable to human mistakes and foibles.
The strength of science as a methodology is that it relies on empirical evi=
dence=2C is open to scrutiny by all=2C and is self-correcting. So if someon=
e from DFO (scientist or bureaucrat) makes a claim=2C and it is demonstrabl=
y a pile of crap=2C science as a discipline will eventually bear this out a=
nd send it packing.
A bad apple doesn't destroy the whole barrel. The "scientific community" do=
esn't need to clean up its act if some bureaucrat (scientist or not) become=
s a yes man for a political agenda. David Sibley and John Fitzpatrick (the =
ornithologists referred to below) are no more responsible for what someone =
in Shelburne said than you or the lobstermen of NB are responsible for the =
irresponsible conduct of Russian factory ships=2C Japanese whalers=2C or th=
e plundering of North Atlantic cod stocks by Spanish and Portuguese fishing=
fleets. It's not even apples and oranges - its golf balls and dirigibles. =
=3B->
It's science that created the knowledge to build the computers that allow u=
s to exchange these views on the Internet=3B and geographers and hydrograph=
ers who mapped the Bay of Fundy=2C and elucidated the biology of lobsters a=
nd cod and ivory-billed woodpeckers=2C and cougars - amongst many other thi=
ngs. Throwing the baby out with the bath-water doesn't get anyone very far.
Cheers!
Chris
On 27-Jul-11=2C at 9:42 PM=2C Andy Moir/Christine Callaghan wrote: I am a=
fraid I don't hold the scientific community in the same high esteem that Ri=
chard does. In fact=2C I believe segments of the scientific community have =
a growing credibility problem. In our efforts on some environmental issu=
es here on the Neck and Islands=2C we have come up against all sorts of sci=
entists who interpret "facts" to suit the wishes of their political or busi=
ness masters. A recent example came from DFO scientists who told a crowd =
in Shelburne that there is no scientific evidence to show that open net sal=
mon farms do damage to the local lobster population. They made it sound as=
if they had actually studied the issue. But of course=2C they haven't...t=
hey have quite intentionally not studied it=2C presumably for fear of what =
they might find. When government scientists make this sort of claim=2C I a=
sk myself=2C where is the test of a "high degree of proof" that Richard ref=
ers to in his note. The people who have studied it=2C the lobstermen of N=
B=2C who have 20 years or more experience of seeing their livelihood destro=
yed by open net fish farms=2C don't have PhD after their names=2C so their =
observations are dismissed=2C often by scientists. In many cases=2C I'll t=
ake local knowledge over the political/scientific agenda of those who are p=
aid to provide advice that the politicians want to hear. All too often=2C =
the science has been tainted to reflect a reality that has more to do with =
creating jobs and making money than accurately or fairly assessing the envi=
ronmental impact of some of these projects.So I think the scientific commun=
ity has a long way to go to clean up its act before it can rightly claim an=
y holier than thou attitude about who is right=2C and who is wrong on these=
issues=2C or=2C if fact=2C what the criteria should be for determining wha=
t is the truth. Andy in Freeport ----- Original Message -----From: Richard=
SternTo: NatureNSSent: Wednesday=2C July 27=2C 2011 7:48 PMSubject: [Natur=
eNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers
Hi=2C
I'll weigh in on the interesting thread about E.cougars=2C elephants etc.=
=2C mainly because I enjoy this kind of debate. Wild cougars (or Eskimo cu=
rlews=2C or Coelocanths etc.) may or may not be present in NS=2C and people=
can believe whatever they want. But I agree with Ulli etc. that convincing=
the naturalist and scientific community would require a pretty high degree=
of proof - preferably independently analysed and corroborated photos=2C vi=
deos=2C DNA etc.=2C and then proof beyond a reasonable doubt that any photo=
s aren't faked in some way=2C and that the creature wasn't a zoo or collect=
ion escape=2C like Paul's elephant.=20
I would urge interested parties=2C and for that matter all birders and natu=
ralists interested in reporting sightings=2C to read David Sibley's refuta=
tion of the "proof" that the Ivory-billed woodpecker still lives in Arkansa=
s=2C for a great example of what to look for and how to go about it =2C and=
the sort of analysis that should convince skeptics on rare bird committees=
etc.! (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767/1555.1.full)=2C followed=
by John Fitzpatrick's response (http://www.sciencemag.org/content/311/5767=
/1555.2.full). These are 2 highly respected well-known birders with multipl=
e books and publications to their name=2C who give apparently convincing ev=
idence to prove opposite "facts"=2C neither of which has subsequently been =
corroborated=2C although apparently Fitzpatrick has backed down somewhat an=
d the Cornell team have stopped searching till more definitive evidence is =
found.
Keep debating and looking!
Richard
--=20
#################
Richard Stern=2C=20
317 Middle Dyke Rd.
Port Williams=2C NS=2C Canada
B0P 1T0
sternrichard@gmail.com
###################
=
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ah yes - but Steve Jobs was a highschool drop out and Bill gates =3Blef=
t Harvard in his junior year....<br> =3B<BR><div><hr id=3D"stopSpelling=
">From: c.majka@ns.sympatico.ca<br>To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca<br>Subject: =
Re: [NatureNS] Cougars and Ivory-billed woodpeckers<br>Date: Wed=2C 27 Jul =
2011 22:27:18 -0300<br><br>Hi Andy=2C<div><br></div><div>Science is both a =
body of knowledge and a methodology. It's practitioners ar