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These are some intriguing examples, wish I had prizes to offer. Chris' dolphin example is fascinating, and might be another case of learning for an extra or easier reward, based on a much older cooperative behaviour to school fish in order to make them easier to catch for the pod, that other cetaceans also exhibit. You'd then perhaps ask who was actually training whom -- the humans presumably learned something from the dolphins, who in a real sense were the initial teachers. I suppose that if it were recent (is known for 6 centuries 'recent'?), the new behaviour with humans could be socially transmitted through generations by the local dolphin society/pod, not necessarily through genetic change. Jim's examples are interesting because they illustrate how any interspecies cooperation would have to start, by one species taking advantage of a resource exploited by another perhaps more powerful animal, that did not itself benefit at first (I went to the recent Dal talk about ivory gulls, birds which are almost exclusively winter-dependent on polar bear kills of seals in the area under study, and so are at risk as a result of PB difficulties from late arrival of sea ice). I'd only be convinced by the Tibetan example if the more nimble fox actually let the slower bear have every second pika, or even better, actually killed some of them and let the bear eat these offerings, rather than running off to bury each pika it caught in the snow. Perhaps this happens? The second half of Fred's 'Heinrich' example is one of the most revealing. A reliable ravens-human connection might seem implausible at first sight because at least in N. America, humans colonized only 'recently', in the last 10-11,000 years (well, there were earlier coastal forays in the 20,000 year range), so not enough time... But this seeming objection runs up against the newer work on domestication of dogs from wolves, which took place only once just a few thousand years ago -- the domestication event itself is thought to have taken a much shorter time even than this. Or the Russian example of selective breeding that achieved docility in silver(?) foxes over just a few generations. Perhaps dog-human is one of the better documented examples of mutualism where it is clear that both species clearly benefit from the connection, above what they had when living independently before. So given the speediness of that development, it is much easier to imagine that a crow-wolf symbiotic cooperation, much older, could have been transferred by a very smart bird to humans and even consolidated genetically in a short time. After humans first appeared on the scene, ravens observed them to be usefully killing large animals even more efficiently than wolves did, so expanded their allegiance to the new species. Could crows-human roadkill be a developing example? -- will crows, also smart, soon start chasing racoons out into traffic? Anyway, really interesting examples -- Merry Christmas to everyone. Steve ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Quoting "Frederick W. Schueler" <bckcdb@istar.ca>: > On 12/21/2011 7:34 PM, James W. Wolford wrote: >> Steve Shaw asked: can anyone think of real 'natural' vertebrate example >> that involves species that are different, like the fanciful crow-merlin >> example? The two species' behaviours presumably would have to have >> co-evolved, rather unlikely. > > * Bernd Hienrich, in his book "Every story you've heard about Ravens > is True" (printed as "The mind of the Raven"), says Ravens are > evolved as symbionts of Wolves, and lead Wolves to their prey, just > as they're often said to lead human hunters to prey. > > fred. > =========================================================== >> >> Of the top of my head, I would suggest various birds like honey-guides >> that attract and follow honey badgers in Africa? to get honey (after the >> honey badger finishes a raid on a hymenopterous nest. And I once saw a >> documentary video concerning cooperatively-hunting clans of Hawks in the >> desert going after cottontail rabbits and perhaps hares, and mammals >> like coyotes? joining in the hunt -- the hawks share their prey among >> themselves, but the opportunistic coyote might get away with the prize. >> Another video on PBS showed on the Tibetan Plateau two mammals together >> hunting pikas (rodent-like relatives of rabbits and hares) -- Tibetan >> brown bear and Tibetan fox -- the bear dug up the burrows, and the fox >> was shown to note the escaping pika and grab and eat it quickly. >> >> Cheers from Jim in Wolfville. >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >>> *From: *"Stephen R. Shaw" <srshaw@Dal.Ca <mailto:srshaw@Dal.Ca>> >>> *Date: *December 21, 2011 7:35:26 PM AST >>> *To: *naturens@chebucto.ns.ca <mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> >>> *Subject: **Re: [NatureNS] woodpecker, crow, merlin story -- was A >>> bird affair...* >>> *Reply-To: *naturens@chebucto.ns.ca <mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> >>> >>> Re. Jane's second fun thought, while there's no sound evidence of >>> anything resembling 'telepathy' anywhere, despite searches in the >>> early 20th century that have since fizzled out, there are quite a few >>> well known signals that animals do send and receive that are outside >>> the human range of detectability. For example, ultrasound (in bats, >>> leps, some katydids), infrared light (in certain snakes, some >>> buprestid beetles), ultraviolet light (many insects, hummingbirds), >>> plane polarized light, electric fields in water (sharks, 'electric >>> fish', platypus), specific pheromones (many insects), carbon dioxide. >>> The ability to detect low strength magnetic fields and even >>> infra-sound should probably be added. >>> >>> Regarding the first thought on cooperativity, perhaps more >>> interesting, to have two different species share a natural foraging >>> strategy would require that each get more out of it than either could >>> gain alone. Most of the seemingly at-first-sight cases like >>> lions-hyenas-jackals-vultures or bears-wolves, are cases where one >>> animal takes over a resource obtained by the other, not one of mutual >>> extra benefit. There are real examples from insects, for example ants >>> tending aphid herds and presumably affording them protection while >>> gaining honeydew in return, or the ant-acacia bush connection (a shrub >>> in this case, and not directly about food). I can't think immediately >>> of any vertebrate example apart from the unique case of Old Tom >>> (killer whale-human). He was a particular orca that herded other >>> migratng whales (Minke?) into an Australian bay near the town of Eden, >>> where the local whalers could more easily kill them. The benefit to >>> Tom was that he was always given the whale's tongue after the kill, so >>> it was presumably a learned behaviour for a reward, not innate. It >>> ended badly. Likewise, falconry, or foxhound hunting may exploit >>> natural behaviors but involve rewards for learning some task. >>> >>> There are lots of examples of such behaviours between genetically >>> related individuals of the same species, such as sharing food with >>> offspring, or colony protection (terns) or 'atruistic' sacrifice by >>> one individual that can be offset by benefits to the genes of another >>> member (classic case is the honeybee, explained genetically by the >>> late W.D. Hamilton). >>> >>> Christmas quiz: can anyone think of real 'natural' vertebrate example >>> that involves species that are different, like the fanciful >>> crow-merlin example? The two species' behaviours presumably would have >>> to have co-evolved, rather unlikely. >>> Steve (Halifax) >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> >>>>> ---- Dave&Jane Schlosberg <dschlosb-g@ns.sympatico.ca >>>>> <mailto:dschlosb-g@ns.sympatico.ca>> wrote: >>>>>> What I’m wondering is, do you think the crow and the merlin were in >>>>>> kahoots? Perhaps they shared the plunder, back at the clubhouse.... >>>>>> just like the boys in Oliver Twist. I’m thinking more and more, as >>>>>> I watch the birds at the feeders, that they can do telepathy . >>>>>> Oh well, a fun thought... >>>>>> Jane >>> >>> Quoting "James W. Wolford" <jimwolford@EastLink.ca >>> <mailto:jimwolford@EastLink.ca>>: >>> >>>> Manny or most of Nature's creatures, esp. predators and scavengers, >>>> are opportunistic, and the crow-mediated damage to the woodpecker >>>> plus the escape presented a great opportunity for the merlin. And I'm >>>> sure there are lots of similar but unwitnessed stories like this all >>>> around us all the time. >>>> >>>> Regarding Richard's comments below, I don't know of algae that >>>> consume bacteria, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are >>>> some, given Nature's huge inventory of diverse life-cycles. >>>> >>>> Cheers from Jim in Wolfville. >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>>> From: duartess@ns.sympatico.ca <mailto:duartess@ns.sympatico.ca> >>>>> Date: December 21, 2011 2:45:15 PM AST >>>>> To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca <mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> >>>>> Cc: Dave&Jane Schlosberg <dschlosb-g@ns.sympatico.ca >>>>> <mailto:dschlosb-g@ns.sympatico.ca>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Fwd: A bird affair... >>>>> Reply-To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca <mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> >>>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> Having re-read what I wrote & how it sounded, it was certainly >>>>> overly sentimental and guess I might have sounded like one of those >>>>> wacko Animal Rights activist. YIKES!! Must admit, I too wished >>>>> someone could have been there to photograph this event too. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, Cheers to all! >>>>> >>>>> Gayle MacLean >>>>> Dartmouth >>>>> >>> >>>>>> From: Richard Stern >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 9:35 PM >>>>>> To: duartess@ns.sympatico.ca <mailto:duartess@ns.sympatico.ca> >>>>>> Cc: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca <mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Fwd: A bird affair... >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Personally I don't think it's shocking or sad, and I would love to >>>>>> have photographed or video-d it. But I agree, nature doesn't follow >>>>>> what people think of as cute or kind. Merlins like to eat >>>>>> woodpeckers, woodpeckers like to eat insect larvae, insect larvae >>>>>> like to eat algae, algae like to eat bacteria, and if you're a >>>>>> bacterium-lover, you'd probably think algae were cruel or shocking. >>>>>> It's all just nature's way of preserving the individual and >>>>>> propagating the species. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers - Richard >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 9:08 PM, <duartess@ns.sympatico.ca >>>>>> <mailto:duartess@ns.sympatico.ca>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh, how shocking and very sad for your friend to have witnessed >>>>>> this, but, that's nature, and nature's way. Beautiful, but hard, >>>>>> and completely unforgiving. >>>>>> >>>>>> Gayle MacLean >>>>>> Dartmouth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---- Richard Stern <sternrichard@gmail.com >>>>>> <mailto:sternrichard@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A photographer friend sent me this the other day - thought I'd >>>>>>> share it >>>>>>> with NatureNS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Richard >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Richard: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just had to share this story with you.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Last week I was walking our dog past a neighbour's yard and heard a >>>>>>> commotion. I turned and saw a crow (raven?) attacking a small >>>>>>> Woodpecker... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The woodpecker managed to escape and flew directly toward me, a little >>>>>>> unstable and chirping the whole time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It then flew right by by me and almost across the road, when a >>>>>>> merlin come >>>>>>> out of nowhere and snatched it up in midair & up out of sight. No more >>>>>>> chirping from the woodpecker. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The whole event took about 5 seconds: I was dumbfounded, alone, >>>>>>> and amazed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thought you'd like to know! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happy Holidays... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gerry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> ################# >>>>>>> Richard Stern, >>>>>>> Port Williams, NS, Canada >>>>>>> sternrichard@gmail.com <mailto:sternrichard@gmail.com> >>>>>>> ################### > -- > > fred > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad > Bishops Mills Natural History Centre - http://pinicola.ca/bmnhc.htm > Mudpuppy Night in Oxford Mills - http://pinicola.ca/mudpup1.htm > Daily Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/ > South Nation Basin Art & Science Book > http://pinicola.ca/books/SNR_book.htm > RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0 > on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W > (613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/ > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------------------ >
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