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Hi Jim and All, May 20, 2014
The movement of free water in a closed system of a uniform porous =
body from defined initial conditions can be calculated precisely if you =
happen to recall the equations and have lots of time to write programs. =
But as you suggested (I think), in the real world just about every =
setting is in some way unique. And certainly movement of free water in =
soil determines both some aspects of topography and plant distribution.=20
For example Chrysosplenium americanum (Golden saxifrage) is almost =
restricted to sparsely vegetated very wet soils of less acid parent =
material, often in glades of woodland, where water tends to seep from a =
bank or upwell from below. Floerkia proserpinacoides (False Mermaid) is =
found in superficially similar settings but usually away from woodland, =
perhaps even less acid conditions, and downslope from deep gravel or =
sand deposits. I don't recall ever having seen them together.=20
If you walk around the east side of Elderkin Ravine you will find a =
series of short to very long draws that interrupt the abrupt transition =
from nearly level to steep. These draws were likely created by some =
soil erosion initially but mostly by silica or other slowly soluble soil =
components dissolving in soil water that moves laterally and seeps from =
the ravine wall where porous sandstone overlies less porous sandstone. I =
know that Equisetum scirpoides (Dwarf Scouring Rush; lots of silica) is =
found in the ravine and have not scrambled down there to check this but =
would expect (from the lie of the land) that the probability of finding =
it below these draws to be considerably greater that below random points =
between draws. =20
Etc.
YT, Dave Webster, Kentville
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Jim (James W.) Wolford=20
To: NatureNS ; Bob Bancroft ; Mark F Elderkin ; John Gilhen ; Fred =
Scott=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 5:39 PM
Subject: [NatureNS] slacks - when do they refill? vs. vernal pools + =
marbled salamander biology
It occurs to me that there might be a poorly known wild card in all =
these places, regarding both slacks and vernal pools, and that is =
seepage from underground springs of more than one kind?? My naive guess =
is that the distribution of springs and their amounts and seasonality of =
seepage is about as well known (poorly or worse?) as for groundwater. =
Thus when talking to people or writing about "my" vernal pool on the =
Jodrey Trail in Blomidon Prov. Park (home to fairy shrimps etc.), I =
throw in possible seepage from springs as part of the cycle there of =
filling and dropping levels of water, which varies hugely from year to =
year.
Cheers from Jim in Wolfville.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Fred Schueler <bckcdb@istar.ca>
Date: May 20, 2014 5:05:00 PM ADT
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] slacks - when do they refill?
Reply-To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
On 5/20/2014 3:20 PM, Randy Lauff wrote:
Thanks Fred, but in a dune system, wouldn't that mean that the =
slacks
would be less than half full with water? These are sand =
dunes...very
porous, so I'm suspecting water leaching in from the hills of the =
dunes
into the slacks just couldn't fill them. This is unlike the =
condition in
vernal pools where there can be ample elevation around from which =
water
could leach in to the pool area. I'm thinking there has to be a
significant rain or snow fall to fill them.
* of course I can't visualize your landscape, but in sand wouldn't =
the precipitation just immediately flow away into the water table? Those =
vernal pools that are good Wood Frog breeding habitat don't particularly =
respond to immediate precipitation (as nearby flow-connected wetlands =
do), since they don't have any inflowing streams, and they just seem to =
be at whatever level the water table is - and it would seem that this =
would be even more the case in sand, unless there's clay lenses under =
the surface that hold the water from snow melt & rain? (my Wood Frog =
ponds are actually among old dunes from the Champlain Sea, that were =
more recently active after the deforestation of the late 19th Century).
fred.
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
On 20 May 2014 15:30, Fred Schueler <bckcdb@istar.ca
<mailto:bckcdb@istar.ca>> wrote:
On 5/20/2014 2:18 PM, Randy Lauff wrote:
Between several of the dunes at Pomquet Beach, Ant. Co., =
the
slacks (the
troughs between dune crests) fill with water, but by =
summer are
dry. I
guess I've just never been there at the right time to see =
when
they fill
again...it can't be just from winter melt water, since the
slacks are
almost full (and snow melts to about 10% its volume as =
water).
Do the
autumn rains fill them again, or the spring rains? Or is =
it a
case-by-case scenario, which I'd just have to monitor?
* I had the same thought about vernal pools at the CARCNET =
meeting
at Quebec City in 1999, during a presentation on Marbled
Salamanders, which come down into the vernal pools to lay =
their eggs
on the dry pondbed in the fall, and stay with them all winter. =
It
turns out that the vernal pools fill from the water table, as =
one
would think sandy dunes would. And yes, I've been monitoring =
water
level in our local Wood Frog ponds, fall and late winter, ever =
since
then.
fred.
------------------------------__------------------------------
--=20
------------------------------------------------------------
Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta Karstad
Daily Paintings - http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com/
Vulnerable Watersheds - http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca/
study our books - http://pinicola.ca/books/index.htm
RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G 1T0
on the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W
(613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> http://pinicola.ca/
------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4577 / Virus Database: 3950/7502 - Release Date: =
05/15/14
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"=20
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi Jim and All, =
=20
=
May=20
20, 2014</DIV>
<DIV> The movement of free water in a closed system of =
a uniform porous body from defined initial conditions can be =
calculated=20
precisely if you happen to recall the equations and have lots of time to =
write=20
programs. But as you suggested (I think), in the real world just about =
every=20
setting is in some way unique. And certainly movement of free water in =
soil=20
determines both some aspects of topography and plant distribution. =
</DIV>
<DIV> For example Chrysosplenium americanum (Golden =
saxifrage)=20
is almost restricted to sparsely vegetated very wet soils of less acid =
parent=20
material, often in glades of woodland, where water tends to seep =
from a=20
bank or upwell from below. Floerkia proserpinacoides (False Mermaid) is =
found in=20
superficially similar settings but usually away from woodland, perhaps =
even less=20
acid conditions, and downslope from deep gravel or sand deposits. I =
don't=20
recall ever having seen them together. </DIV>
<DIV> If you walk around the east side of Elderkin=20
Ravine you will find a series of short to very long draws that =
interrupt=20
the abrupt transition from nearly level to steep. These draws =
were=20
likely created by some soil erosion initially but mostly by silica or =
other=20
slowly soluble soil components dissolving in soil water that moves=20
laterally and seeps from the ravine wall where porous sandstone overlies =
less=20
porous sandstone. I know that Equisetum scirpoides (Dwarf Scouring Rush; =
lots of=20
silica) is found in the ravine and have not scrambled down there to =
check this=20
but would expect (from the lie of the land) that the probability of =
finding=20
it below these draws to be considerably greater that below random points =
between=20
draws. </DIV>
<DIV> Etc.</DIV>
<DIV>YT, Dave Webster, Kentville</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djimwolford@eastlink.ca =
href=3D"mailto:jimwolford@eastlink.ca">Jim=20
(James W.) Wolford</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">NatureNS</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dwild1@eastlink.ca href=3D"mailto:wild1@eastlink.ca">Bob =
Bancroft</A> ; <A=20
title=3Delderkmf@gov.ns.ca href=3D"mailto:elderkmf@gov.ns.ca">Mark F =
Elderkin</A>=20
; <A title=3DGILHENJA@gov.ns.ca =
href=3D"mailto:GILHENJA@gov.ns.ca">John Gilhen</A>=20
; <A title=3Dfwscott@eastlink.ca =
href=3D"mailto:fwscott@eastlink.ca">Fred=20
Scott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 20, 2014 =
5:39 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [NatureNS] slacks - =
when do they=20
refill? vs. vernal pools + marbled salamander biology</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>It occurs to me that there might be a poorly known wild =
card in=20
all these places, regarding both slacks and vernal pools, and that is =
seepage=20
from underground springs of more than one kind?? My naive guess =
is that=20
the distribution of springs and their amounts and seasonality of =
seepage is=20
about as well known (poorly or worse?) as for groundwater. Thus =
when=20
talking to people or writing about "my" vernal pool on the Jodrey =
Trail in=20
Blomidon Prov. Park (home to fairy shrimps etc.), I throw in possible =
seepage=20
from springs as part of the cycle there of filling and dropping levels =
of=20
water, which varies hugely from year to year.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Cheers from Jim in Wolfville.<BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>Begin forwarded message:</DIV><BR =
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
COLOR: #000000"=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><B>From: </B></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica>Fred =
Schueler <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:bckcdb@istar.ca">bckcdb@istar.ca</A>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
COLOR: #000000"=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><B>Date: </B></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica>May 20, =
2014 5:05:00 PM=20
ADT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
COLOR: #000000"=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><B>To: </B></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
COLOR: #000000"=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><B>Subject: =
</B></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><B>Re: =
[NatureNS] slacks=20
- when do they refill?</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
COLOR: #000000"=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><B>Reply-To: =
</B></FONT><FONT=20
style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" size=3D3 face=3DHelvetica><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</A></FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">On 5/20/2014 3:20 PM, Randy Lauff =
wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Thanks Fred, but in a dune system, =
wouldn't that=20
mean that the slacks</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">would be less than half full with =
water? These=20
are sand dunes...very</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">porous, so I'm suspecting water =
leaching in from=20
the hills of the dunes</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">into the slacks just couldn't fill =
them. This is=20
unlike the condition in</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">vernal pools where there can be ample =
elevation=20
around from which water</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">could leach in to the pool area. I'm =
thinking=20
there has to be a</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">significant rain or snow fall to fill=20
them.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">* of course I can't visualize your =
landscape, but=20
in sand wouldn't the precipitation just immediately flow away into =
the water=20
table? Those vernal pools that are good Wood Frog breeding habitat =
don't=20
particularly respond to immediate precipitation (as nearby =
flow-connected=20
wetlands do), since they don't have any inflowing streams, and they =
just=20
seem to be at whatever level the water table is - and it would seem =
that=20
this would be even more the case in sand, unless there's clay lenses =
under=20
the surface that hold the water from snow melt & rain? (my Wood =
Frog=20
ponds are actually among old dunes from the Champlain Sea, that were =
more=20
recently active after the deforestation of the late 19th =
Century).</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">fred.</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">On 20 May 2014 15:30, Fred Schueler =
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:bckcdb@istar.ca">bckcdb@istar.ca</A></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><<A=20
href=3D"mailto:bckcdb@istar.ca">mailto:bckcdb@istar.ca</A>>> =
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>On 5/20/2014 2:18 PM, Randy Lauff wrote:</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>Between several of the dunes at Pomquet =
Beach, Ant.=20
Co., the</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>slacks (the</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>troughs between dune crests) fill with water, =
but by=20
summer are</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>dry. I</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>guess I've just never been there at the right =
time to=20
see when</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>they fill</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>again...it can't be just from winter melt =
water,=20
since the</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>slacks are</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>almost full (and snow melts to about 10% its =
volume=20
as water).</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>Do the</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>autumn rains fill them again, or the spring =
rains? Or=20
is it a</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>case-by-case scenario, which I'd just have to =
monitor?</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>* I had the same thought about vernal pools at the CARCNET=20
meeting</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>at Quebec City in 1999, during a presentation on =
Marbled</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>Salamanders, which come down into the vernal pools to lay =
their=20
eggs</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>on the dry pondbed in the fall, and stay with them all =
winter.=20
It</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>turns out that the vernal pools fill from the water table, =
as=20
one</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>would think sandy dunes would. And yes, I've been =
monitoring=20
water</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>level in our local Wood Frog ponds, fall and late winter, =
ever=20
since</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>then.</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>fred.</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
=
</SPAN>------------------------------__------------------------------</DI=
V></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 14px"><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">--<SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">------------------------------------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>Frederick W. Schueler & Aleta =
Karstad</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Daily Paintings - <A=20
=
href=3D"http://karstaddailypaintings.blogspot.com">http://karstaddailypai=
ntings.blogspot.com</A>/</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px">Vulnerable Watersheds - <A=20
=
href=3D"http://vulnerablewaters.blogspot.ca">http://vulnerablewaters.blog=
spot.ca</A>/</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>study our books - <A=20
=
href=3D"http://pinicola.ca/books/index.htm">http://pinicola.ca/books/inde=
x.htm</A></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>RR#2 Bishops Mills, Ontario, Canada K0G=20
1T0</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN>on=20
the Smiths Falls Limestone Plain 44* 52'N 75* 42'W</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
</SPAN>(613)258-3107 <bckcdb at istar.ca> <A=20
href=3D"http://pinicola.ca">http://pinicola.ca</A>/</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"MARGIN: =
0px">------------------------------------------------------------</DIV></=
BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV><A></A>
<P align=3Dleft color=3D"#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this=20
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A=20
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2014.0.4577 / =
Virus=20
Database: 3950/7502 - Release Date: =
05/15/14</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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