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Hi Pat & All, Jan 12, 2016
Note that Dr. Arp was Noseworthy's supervisor. Perhaps those who =
redacted the initial report were skeptical of conclusions which were =
based on speculation and a mechanistic model as opposed to experiment. =
And one can be reasonably sure that Dr. Arp's report, to which you =
refer, would have highlighted Ca depletion as being a problem.
Because Dr, Arp let Noseworthy's question mark stand it would seem =
that he also would prefer some reliable evidence.
It is entirely valid to use an untested model to sift out an array =
of questions or sort areas of woodland into types but entirely dubious =
to imagine that model output represents final and reliable conclusions.
This 'crisis' of Ca depletion has been around for some years =
(decades perhaps; not sure). Why has nobody bothered to test the idea by =
experiment ?=20
Yt, Dave Webster
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Patrick Kelly=20
To: <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca>=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Re Red Herring & Forestry
Hi all:=20
One thing that might be of interested was that several years ago (not =
sure of the exact date) Dr. Paul Arp had prepared a report on the =
nutrient content of the soils of the areas of crown land in the western =
areas of the province and the soils ability to support future forestry. =
That report was received and has not been released to the public. Early =
in 2015, the Federation of Nova Scotia Naturalists was going to use a =
freedom of information request to get access to that report. During that =
process it was found that a reported had already gone through the =
process, but that the report had been so heavily redacted as to be =
useless.=20
So here we have a report on public land, paid for a produced by the =
public and yet we cannot see what is in it. That alone tells me that =
things can't be good, otherwise the government, you would think, would =
be more than happy to show documentation that their existing policies =
are fine=85
Pat
On Jan 11, 2016, at 7:21 PM, David & Alison Webster wrote:
Hi Nick, David P. & All Jan =
11, 2016
I would be cautious about betting the farm on Ca depletion being a =
major factor.
One telling passage in the Noseworthy thesis is "To what extent the =
apparent luxurious consumption of Ca is beneficial to tree growth =
remains to be explored..."
(p. 194).
This is a very complex model as it stands but, so far as I can =
tell, makes no allowance for consumption of H+ by weathering of soil =
minerals so the effect of acidic ppt. may be overstated to some degree. =
And, so far as I can see, it is a balance sheet and consequently does =
not allow for possible responses of soils or trees when inputs or =
outputs change.
Phosphorus was excluded unfortunately. But as the model stands it =
is I think an excellent launching pad from which to define questions =
that need testing by experiment.
A narrow band of basic soils appears on both sides of most =
waterways, in the area most intensively studied (Kejimkujik National =
Park) suggesting that the acidity of soil water, as it passes through =
acidic soil upslope, is slightly neutralized (weathering effect ?). =
Whether these bands were a prediction of the model or an observation of =
soil survey I am unsure.
One feature of large expensive equipment is that it will tend to =
be used regardless of soil conditions. A few passes over soil when it is =
sufficiently wet to be compacted may result in damage which will take =
decades to reverse. If harvesting by large equipment does in fact reduce =
growth of the next generation of trees then it could be due to changes =
in soil porosity at 40 cm or beyond and not nutrient removal.
I must become less involved with this question because in less =
than a month I have blown a year's allotment of discretionary time and =
trying to herd cats up a waterfall is not an efficient use of scarce =
time.
Yt, DW
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Patrick Kelly
Director of Computer Facilities
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Faculty of Architecture and Planning
Dalhousie University
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MAIL COURIER
PO Box 15000 5410 Spring Garden Road
Halifax, Nova Scotia B3H 4R2 Halifax, Nova Scotia
Canada Canada
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Phone:(902) 494-3294 FAX:(902) 423-6672 =
E-mail:patrick.kelly@dal.ca
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7294 / Virus Database: 4489/11377 - Release Date: =
01/11/16
------=_NextPart_000_08FA_01D14D4E.6C9F44A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.23588">
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"=20
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi Pat & All, =
=20
=
=20
Jan 12, 2016</DIV>
<DIV> Note that Dr. Arp was Noseworthy's supervisor. =
Perhaps=20
those who redacted the initial report were skeptical of conclusions =
which were=20
based on speculation and a mechanistic model as opposed to experiment. =
And one=20
can be reasonably sure that Dr. Arp's report, to which you refer, would =
have=20
highlighted Ca depletion as being a problem.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Because Dr, Arp let Noseworthy's question =
mark=20
stand it would seem that he also would prefer =
some reliable=20
evidence.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> It is entirely valid to use an =
untested model=20
to sift out an array of questions or sort areas of woodland into types =
but=20
entirely dubious to imagine that model output represents final=20
and reliable conclusions.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> This 'crisis' of Ca depletion has been =
around for=20
some years (decades perhaps; not sure). Why has nobody bothered to test =
the idea=20
by experiment ? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yt, Dave Webster</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"=20
dir=3Dltr>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DPatrick.Kelly@Dal.Ca =
href=3D"mailto:Patrick.Kelly@Dal.Ca">Patrick=20
Kelly</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dnaturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
=
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca>"><naturens@chebucto.ns.ca><=
/A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 12, 2016 =
10:03=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NatureNS] Re Red =
Herring=20
& Forestry</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi all:=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>One thing that might be of interested was that several years ago =
(not=20
sure of the exact date) Dr. Paul Arp had prepared a report on =
the=20
nutrient content of the soils of the areas of crown land in the =
western areas=20
of the province and the soils ability to support future =
forestry. That=20
report was received and has not been released to the public. Early in =
2015,=20
the Federation of Nova Scotia Naturalists was going to use a freedom =
of=20
information request to get access to that report. During that process =
it was=20
found that a reported had already gone through the process, but that =
the=20
report had been so heavily redacted as to be useless.=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>So here we have a report on public land, paid for a produced by =
the=20
public and yet we cannot see what is in it. That alone tells me that =
things=20
can't be good, otherwise the government, you would think, would be =
more than=20
happy to show documentation that their existing policies are =
fine=85</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Pat</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Jan 11, 2016, at 7:21 PM, David & Alison Webster =
wrote:</DIV><BR=20
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>Hi Nick, David P. & All=20
=
&=
nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp; Jan=20
11, 2016<BR> I would be cautious about betting the farm =
on Ca=20
depletion being a major factor.<BR>One telling passage in the=20
Noseworthy thesis is "To what extent the apparent luxurious =
consumption of=20
Ca is beneficial to tree growth remains to be explored..."<BR>(p.=20
194).<BR> This is a very complex model as it stands but, =
so far=20
as I can tell, makes no allowance for consumption of H+ by =
weathering of=20
soil minerals so the effect of acidic ppt. may be overstated to some =
degree.=20
And, so far as I can see, it is a balance sheet and consequently =
does not=20
allow for possible responses of soils or trees when inputs or =
outputs=20
change.<BR> Phosphorus was excluded unfortunately. But as =
the=20
model stands it is I think an excellent launching pad from which to =
define=20
questions that need testing by experiment.<BR> A narrow =
band of=20
basic soils appears on both sides of most waterways, in the area =
most=20
intensively studied (Kejimkujik National Park) suggesting that the =
acidity=20
of soil water, as it passes through acidic soil upslope, is slightly =
neutralized (weathering effect ?). Whether these bands were a =
prediction of=20
the model or an observation of soil survey I am =
unsure.<BR> One=20
feature of large expensive equipment is that it will tend to be used =
regardless of soil conditions. A few passes over soil when it is=20
sufficiently wet to be compacted may result in damage which will =
take=20
decades to reverse. If harvesting by large equipment does in fact =
reduce=20
growth of the next generation of trees then it could be due to =
changes in=20
soil porosity at 40 cm or beyond and not nutrient =
removal.<BR> I=20
must become less involved with this question because in less than a =
month I=20
have blown a year's allotment of discretionary time and trying to =
herd cats=20
up a waterfall is not an efficient use of scarce time.<BR><BR>Yt,=20
DW<BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space"><SPAN=20
style=3D"WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; =
BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; =
ORPHANS: 2; LETTER-SPACING: normal; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); WORD-SPACING: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"=20
class=3DApple-style-span>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier><BR=20
=
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>Patrick Kelly</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>Director of Computer Facilities</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
=
face=3DCourier>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>Faculty of Architecture and Planning</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>Dalhousie University</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
=
face=3DCourier>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>MAIL =
=20
=20
COURIER</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3 =
face=3DCourier>PO=20
Box 15000 <SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> =
=20
<SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>5410=20
Spring Garden Road</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>Halifax, Nova Scotia B3H 4R2<SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> <SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>Halifax, Nova=20
Scotia</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>Canada<SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> =
=20
<SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>Canada</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
=
face=3DCourier>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
face=3DCourier>Phone:(902) 494-3294<SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> =20
<SPAN =
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>FAX:(902)=20
423-6672<SPAN class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-converted-space> <SPAN=20
=
class=3DApple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN>E-mail:patrick.kelly@da=
l.ca</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Courier" size=3D3=20
=
face=3DCourier>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D</FONT></P></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><A></A>
<P align=3Dleft color=3D"#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this=20
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A=20
href=3D"http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2016.0.7294 / =
Virus=20
Database: 4489/11377 - Release Date: =
01/11/16</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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