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you contract in length in the direction of travel, an
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Hello Larry & All,
Thanks Larry, my question about being able to determine "c" using=20
electrical hardware goes back at least 35 years. I did read Maxwell's=20
equations then and, step by step, could follow the derivation of them=20
but felt none the wiser when finished. But I can now at least cross that=20
off of my bucket list. It seemed too easy to be true and perhaps low=20
precision of this electrical method accounts for official determinations=20
of "c" by other more expensive methods. I now see, on the internet, some=20
lab demonstrations of this.
Dave W
Hello Patrick & All,,
Thanks for the explanation. I did read General Relativity in part=20
shortly after it came out but did not absorb much. Perhaps with your=20
explanation in hand it will make more sense. So, if I understand=20
correctly, space between A and B can expand at speeds greater than the=20
speed of light; strange. And I suppose any expansion between A and B at=20
rates slower than the speed of light would increase the wavelength of=20
light.
Dave W
------ Original Message ------
From: "Patrick Kelly" <Patrick.Kelly@dal.ca>
To: "naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca>
Sent: 2/25/2019 6:28:29 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [NatureNS] Big Bang?
>Two other points worth noting: Shortly after the Big Bang there was a=20
>period of cosmic inflation. This was originally an entirely theoretical=20
>concept to deal with issues such as why is the universe so flat. and=20
>the horizon problem (how can the cosmic microwave background be almost=20
>exactly the same in opposite directions when there has not been enough=20
>time in the universe for them to have been in contact with each other.=20
>Cosmic inflation, which now has some observational evidence to back it=20
>up, was a brief period when the size of the universe expanded=20
>exponentially, and much faster than the speed of light. This is not a=20
>problem as relativity theory does not prohibit space-time from=20
>expanding faster than the speed of light. Cosmic inflation carried the=20
>vast majority of the universe so far from us that its light has not yet=20
>reached us. Thus, the term "observable universe". At the end of the=20
>cosmic inflationary period, the expansion took on the rate that we see=20
>now (less the effects of mass slowing it and dark energy accelerating=20
>it.
>
>It is also worth noting that special relativity deals only with the=20
>speed of light. For the universe to be logically consistent, all=20
>observers, regardless of their relative motion (hence the term=20
>"relativity") see the speed of light in a vacuum as the "speed of=20
>light". As Carl Sagan said, Thou shalt not add the speed to the speed=20
>of light. Special relativity is what makes strange things appear to=20
>happen to other observers as you near the speed of light. Your clocks=20
>(biological and mechanical) slow down, you contract in length in the=20
>direction of travel, and your mass increases. Unless you are making=20
>really precise measurements, such as with an atomic clock or the GPS=20
>satellites, these effect do not really start to show up until you get=20
>near 50% of the speed of light. At "human" speeds, the equations=20
>simplify to Newton's laws of motion. When you add gravity to special=20
>relativity you get general relativity, which, when Einstein first=20
>worked it out, had him puzzled as it predicted that the universe should=20
>be either expanding or contracting! General relativity also says that=20
>"gravity" is the warping of space-time caused by the presence of mass.=20
>All moving objects, including light respond to the warping of=20
>space-time by changing their velocity, so that even light, passing near=20
>a massive object, will change direction. This effect is responsible for=20
>gravitational lenses.=20
>(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens) Some exoplanets have=20
>been found using gravitational lens.
>
>Pat
>
>
>On Feb 25, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Larry Bogan wrote:
>
>>David,
>> Maxwell's equations summarize the laws of electric and magnetic=20
>>fields. Their solutions for an oscillating electric charge describes=20
>>the electromagnetic wave (light, radio, xray, microwave, etc) and in=20
>>the solution the speed of those waves in a vacuum is determined by two=20
>>constants, the permittivity and permeability of free space. These two=20
>>constants are determined separately by the laws of electric and=20
>>magnetic fields.
>>
>>All this was known in the late 19th century.
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations
>>--
>>Larry Bogan
>><larry@bogan.ca>
>>Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia
>>
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:22:37 +0000
>>David <dwebster@glinx.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Burkhard, Lois, Don & All,
>>> The more I hear about the big bang, which seems to be heavy on
>>>speculation and light on certainty, the more I am inclined to turn to
>>>the present and try to understand it.
>>> One puzzle to which I have found no clear answer is a statement=20
>>>in a
>>>text on Electricity and Magnetism (G.R. Noakes,1950); (page 322)=20
>>>that
>>>ratios of such measurements as capacity in electromagnetic units and
>>>capacity in electrostatic units is "...the simplest direct way of
>>>determining c, the speed of light. It would be inconvenient to do so=20
>>>but
>>>this suggests that the speed of light (in air ?) could be measured in
>>>the dark.
>>> Does this imply that c is determined by the interaction of
>>>electrostatic and electromagnetic forces (possible because light=20
>>>waves
>>>involve both) or is this just a coincidence of ratios between two
>>>independently developed systems of measurement ?
>>>YT, DW, Kentville
>>>
>
>
>Patrick Kelly
>
>159 Town Road
>
>Falmouth NS B0P 1L0
>
>Canada
>
>
>
>(902) 472-2322
>
>
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<body><div>Hello Larry & All,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks Larry, my=
question about being able to determine "c" using electrical hardware goes b=
ack at least 35 years. I did read Maxwell's equations then and, step by ste=
p, could follow the derivation of them but felt none the wiser when finishe=
d. But I can now at least cross that off of my bucket list. It seemed too e=
asy to be true and perhaps low precision of this electrical method accounts =
for official determinations of "c" by other more expensive methods. I now=
see, on the internet, some lab demonstrations of this.</div>
<div>Dave W</div><div><br /></div><div>Hello Patrick & All,,</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks for the explanation. I did read General Relativity in=
part shortly after it came out but did not absorb much. Perhaps with your e=
xplanation in hand =C2=A0it will make more sense. So, if I understand corre=
ctly, space between A and B can expand at speeds greater than the speed of=
light; strange. And I suppose any expansion between A and B at rates slower =
than the speed of light would increase the wavelength of light.=C2=A0</div=
><div>Dave W</div>
<div>------ Original Message ------</div>
<div>From: "Patrick Kelly" <<a href=3D"mailto:Patrick.Kelly@dal.ca">Patr=
ick.Kelly@dal.ca</a>></div>
<div>To: "naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" <<a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.=
ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</a>></div>
<div>Sent: 2/25/2019 6:28:29 PM</div>
<div>Subject: Re: Re[2]: [NatureNS] Big Bang?</div><div><br /></div>
<div id=3D"x2a9d804c0f1441b" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-m=
ode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><blockquote cite=3D"8E=
34287A-B259-46CE-95A6-DF59515F9736@dal.ca" type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite2">
Two other points worth noting: Shortly after the Big Bang there was a perio=
d of cosmic inflation. This was originally an entirely theoretical concept=
to deal with issues such as why is the universe so flat. and the horizon pr=
oblem (how can the cosmic microwave
background be almost exactly the same in opposite directions when there ha=
s not been enough time in the universe for them to have been in contact wit=
h each other. Cosmic inflation, which now has some observational evidence t=
o back it up, was a brief period
when the size of the universe expanded exponentially, and much faster than =
the speed of light. This is not a problem as relativity theory does not pr=
ohibit space-time from expanding faster than the speed of light. Cosmic inf=
lation carried the vast majority
of the universe so far from us that its light has not yet reached us. Thus=
, the term "observable universe". At the end of the cosmic inflationary per=
iod, the expansion took on the rate that we see now (less the effects of ma=
ss slowing it and dark energy accelerating
it.
<div><br />
</div>
<div>It is also worth noting that special relativity deals only with the sp=
eed of light. For the universe to be logically consistent, all observers, r=
egardless of their relative motion (hence the term "relativity") see the sp=
eed of light in a vacuum as the
"speed of light". As Carl Sagan said, Thou shalt not add the speed to the=
speed of light. Special relativity is what makes strange things appear to h=
appen to other observers as you near the speed of light. Your clocks (biolo=
gical and mechanical) slow down,
you contract in length in the direction of travel, and your mass increases=
. Unless you are making really precise measurements, such as with an atomic =
clock or the GPS satellites, these effect do not really start to show up u=
ntil you get near 50% of the speed
of light. At "human" speeds, the equations simplify to Newton's laws of mo=
tion. When you add gravity to special relativity you get general relativity=
, which, when Einstein first worked it out, had him puzzled as it predicted =
that the universe should be either
expanding or contracting! General relativity also says that "gravity" is t=
he warping of space-time caused by the presence of mass. All moving objects=
, including light respond to the warping of space-time by changing their ve=
locity, so that even light, passing
near a massive object, will change direction. This effect is responsible f=
or gravitational lenses. (<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitat=
ional_lens">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_lens</a>) Some exop=
lanets have been found using gravitational
lens.</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<div>Pat</div>
<div><br />
</div>
<div><br />
<div>
<div>On Feb 25, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Larry Bogan wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" />
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">
<div>David,<br />
=C2=A0Maxwell's equations summarize the laws of electric and magnetic field=
s. Their solutions for an oscillating electric charge describes the electro=
magnetic wave (light, radio, xray, microwave, etc) and in the solution the=
speed of those waves in a vacuum is determined
by two constants, the permittivity and permeability of free space. These t=
wo constants are determined separately by the laws of electric and magnetic =
fields.<br />
<br />
All this was known in the late 19th century.<br />
<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations">https://en.=
wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations</a><br />
-- <br />
Larry Bogan <br />
<larry@bogan.ca><br />
Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
On Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:22:37 +0000<br />
David <dwebster@glinx.com>=
wrote:<br />
<br />
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">Hi Burkhard, Lois, Don & All,<=
br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The more I =
hear about the big bang, which seems to be heavy on
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">speculation and light on certainty=
, the more I am inclined to turn to
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">the present and try to understand=
it.<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0One puzzle =
to which I have found no clear answer is a statement in a
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">text on Electricity and Magnetism=
(G.R. Noakes,1950); =C2=A0(page 322) that
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">ratios of such measurements as cap=
acity in electromagnetic units and
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">capacity in electrostatic units is =
"...the simplest direct way of
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">determining c, the speed of light. =
It would be inconvenient to do so but
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">this suggests that the speed of li=
ght (in air ?) could be measured in
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">the dark.<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Does this=
imply that c is determined by the interaction of
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">electrostatic and electromagnetic=
forces (possible because light waves
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">involve both) or is this just a co=
incidence of ratios between two
<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">independently developed systems of =
measurement ?<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite">YT, DW, Kentville<br />
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cite"><br />
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br />
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; f=
ont-family: Helvetica; border-spacing: 0px;"><span class=3D"Apple-style-spa=
n" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: He=
lvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text=
-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-sp=
acing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical=
-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-=
adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; ">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-he=
ight: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spa=
ce: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-ef=
fect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; ">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-he=
ight: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-spa=
ce: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-ef=
fect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
">
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-=
left: 0px; ">
<font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant=
: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-=
family: Courier;"><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" />
Patrick Kelly</font></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-=
left: 0px; ">
<font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant=
: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-=
family: Courier;">159 Town Road</font></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-=
left: 0px; ">
<font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant=
: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-=
family: Courier;">Falmouth NS<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span>B0P 1L0</font></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-=
left: 0px; ">
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: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-=
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left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; min-height: 14px=
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<br />
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left: 0px; ">
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: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-=
family: Courier;">(902) 472-2322</font></p>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></span></div>
<br />
</div>
</blockquote></div>
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