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and get it up to speed than it is with a bicycles. And harde --Apple-Mail-FEAAFA19-C661-4B3C-A59C-7BC2C88F8725 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 David, and all, I agree with much of what you've written. However, I feel there is an impo= rtant distinction that should be made between careless or wanton destruction= by pedestrians, and bicycles, as opposed to what is possible using ATVs, mo= tocross motorcycles and off-road equipped 4x4s. It would be next near to i= mpossible for pedestrians, unless they appeared en masse, perhaps by the doz= ens, and all wearing steel-cleated shoes, to produce anywhere near the damag= e of even one thoughtless or purposefully malicious person on an ATV. For e= xample, just a week or so ago, I happened to be checking the local online ne= ws for my area and noticed a story about vandalism at the Digby Pines golf c= ourse. Apparently, for years, they have encouraged hikers, x-country skiers= and dog walkers to traverse the golf course in winter, so long as they resp= ect the area around the putting greens. This system seems to have worked. H= owever, last week, there was destruction on the course caused by vandals usi= ng an ATV. Hikers and others did report the act of vandalism as it occurred= , but obviously it happened too quickly to stop before the damage was done. = I suppose the hope will be to catch whoever was responsible.=20 http://www.digbycourier.ca/News/Local/2016-01-14/article-4404267/Snow-job%3A= -Vandals-tear-up-Digby-Pines-golf-course/1 Now, the above incident occurred at a place where there were "many eyes" to r= eport the damage a.s.a.p. What happens when there are few to no eyes watch= ing? =20 As John has suggested, this may come down to a greater need for surveillance= , probably using trail cameras, and also at least some policing on the part o= f some authority or another. Based on my own experiences arou d Ottawa, I b= elieve that designating an area as "off limits" does very little good, and i= n fact, may well provoke vandalism by that small few who resent being told w= hat to do. In a way, better to try to keep protected places unidentified an= d attempt to use natural barriers (large fallen trees, immovably huge rocks,= etc...) strategically placed as a deterrent. I should mention that I've discussed this topic ad nauseum with forest range= rs, hiking association, park biologists, and many others during my travels. = Most have plenty of horrifying stories to tell about purposeful destruction= - and all are at a loss for any effective solution other than surveillance.= =20 bev wigney On 2016-01-24, at 1:07 PM, "David & Alison Webster" <dwebster@glinx.com> wro= te: > But some people who do not own or use ATVs are also slobs. Should one ther= efore conclude that those who don't use ATVs should be excluded ? > As for the other point-- > "2. He believes that ATVers will just have to =E2=80=9Cpolice themse= lves=E2=80=9D." >=20 > So far as I am aware, ATVs must have a license plate (Has this changed ?)= Just about everyone carries a camera these days. If an ATV driver is out of= line; anyone present (ATVer or not) should report it with a photo of the of= fending vehicle/driver. >=20 > =20 >=20 > My overall experience with ATVers has been positive; with the exception of= kids and the very rare 'adults' who have never grown up. >=20 > A bit of toterance, patience and adult education will go a long way. >=20 --Apple-Mail-FEAAFA19-C661-4B3C-A59C-7BC2C88F8725 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 <html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div>David, and all,</div>= <div><br></div><div>I agree with much of what you've written. <s= pan class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26= , 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.2= 30469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); ">How= ever, I feel there is an important distinction that should be made between c= areless or wanton destruction by pedestrians, and bicycles, as opposed to wh= at is possible using ATVs, motocross motorcycles and off-road equipped 4x4s.= It would be next near to impossible for pedestrians, unless th= ey appeared en masse, perhaps by the dozens, and all wearing steel-cleated s= hoes, to produce anywhere near the damage of even one thoughtless or purpose= fully malicious person on an ATV. For example, just a week or so ago, I= happened to be checking the local online news for my area and noticed a sto= ry about vandalism at the Digby Pines golf course. Apparently, for yea= rs, they have encouraged hikers, x-country skiers and dog walkers to travers= e the golf course in winter, so long as they respect the area around the put= ting greens. This system seems to have worked. However, last wee= k, there was destruction on the course caused by vandals using an ATV.  = ;Hikers and others did report the act of vandalism as it occurred, but obvio= usly it happened too quickly to stop before the damage was done. I sup= pose the hope will be to catch whoever was responsible. </span></div><d= iv><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rg= ba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227= , 0.230469); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "= ><a href=3D"http://www.digbycourier.ca/News/Local/2016-01-14/article-4404267= /Snow-job%3A-Vandals-tear-up-Digby-Pines-golf-course/1">http://www.digbycour= ier.ca/News/Local/2016-01-14/article-4404267/Snow-job%3A-Vandals-tear-up-Dig= by-Pines-golf-course/1</a></span><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-s= pan" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26, 26, 0.296875); -webk= it-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469); -webkit-compositio= n-frame-color: rgba(77, 128, 180, 0.230469); "><br></span></div><div><span c= lass=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"-webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgba(26, 26,= 26, 0.292969); -webkit-composition-fill-color: rgba(175, 192, 227, 0.230469= ); -webkit-composition-frame-color: rgb