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Point taken.
Rumsfeld was still right (for a change!) J
From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca [mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] =
On Behalf Of David & Alison Webster
Sent: February 4, 2016 2:22 PM
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in=
Canada: a re-evaluation
Hi John & All,
That cultural shift, with overkill, has been in place since day one but=
especially since Silent Spring: ~1960. Ninety five % (my estimate) of rese=
arch effort is a heavy burden of proof. Don't trust me. Read some of these =
papers. Or consult the Soil Sci. Pub I mentioned.
If those who manufacture tooth paste, mouth wash, shampoo, paint, cutle=
ry, dishes... had to leap through a comparable battery of flaming hoops the=
n we would all go unwashed, have rotten teeth, bad breath, live in unpainte=
d hovels and die young, hungry and cold as in the good old days.
Yt, DW
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Nhung <mailto:nhungjohn@eastlink.ca>
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in=
Canada: a re-evaluation
I think we need a cultural shift, where the burden of proof should be on pr=
oponents to show that a potentially harmful activity or product causes no h=
arm. Too often, now, those affected are expected to produce evidence to pr=
ove said harm, and that is usually unfair.
100% incontrovertible proof is almost always a theoretical construct, and =
=E2=80=9CNo evidence=E2=80=9D of a phenomenon has far too often been twiste=
d to imply that the phenomenon doesn=E2=80=99t exist.
Really, all =E2=80=9CNo evidence=E2=80=9D means is, =E2=80=9CNo convincing =
proof, so we don=E2=80=99t know for sure.=E2=80=9D
As Donnie Rumsfeld saif, =E2=80=9CThe absence of evidence is not evidence o=
f absence.=E2=80=9D
From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca [mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] =
On Behalf Of David & Alison Webster
Sent: February 4, 2016 12:05 PM
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in=
Canada: a re-evaluation
Hi Nick & All,
With respect to Atrazine, and pesticides in general, I would guess that=
roughly 95% of the research effort has been directed to environmental prot=
ection. Have a look at Pesticides in the Soil Environment: Processes, Impac=
ts, and Modeling, Soil Sci. Soc Amer. Book Series No. 2., ed. H.H.Cheng, 53=
0 pp.,1990.
Spray and weigh trials are fairly straightforward but making sure that =
materials and their degredation products do not lead directly to environmen=
tal harm is a huge undertaking.
Yt, DW, Kentville
----- Original Message -----
From: Nicholas Hill <mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com>
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in=
Canada: a re-evaluation
David,
no confusion here. Listserve focus is on nature not human safety. Atrazine =
article deals with human safety concerns not biodiversity.
If we want to take a stand on pesticides it would be for their biodiversity=
implications of which there are tons. Roundup is an example but there are =
many
showing impacts of other pesticides on native bees and other pollinators.
Nick
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/04-1291/abstract
http://www.jstor.org/stable/40983228?seq=3D1#page_scan_tab_contents
On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 9:02 PM, David & Alison Webster <dwebster@glinx.com>=
wrote:
Hi Nick,
The item dealt with Atrazine not Roundup. Best not to confuse matters. =
Dave W
----- Original Message -----
From: Nicholas Hill <mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com>
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in=
Canada: a re-evaluation
Gyphosate (roundup) going under radar despite the lethal impacts of amphibi=
an larvae (ca 98% kill) from the surfactant used to get the pesticide acros=
s the plant's cuticle.
Not supposed to be used near water courses but amphibians are in swampy woo=
ds.
As naturalists, impacts on natural world are our major responsibility. Phys=
icians (royal...Ontario. .forget the association) did take a stand against=
recreational and household usage of pesticide on the basis of human health=
risk. We can stand up for nature.
Nick
On Feb 3, 2016 5:59 PM, "N Robinson" <nrobbyn@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone,
A member of the Quebec branch of the Sierra Club just sent me an email reg=
arding Canada's Pest Management Regulatory Agency doing a re-evaluation of =
the pesticide Atrazine (announced December 15 2015).
Some of you, more knowledgeable than I, might want to send them some feedba=
ck.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pest/part/consultations/_rev2015-11/rev2015=
-11-eng.php
Re-evaluation Note REV2015-11, Special Review of Atrazine: Proposed Decisio=
n for Consultation
Nancy
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link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1=
F497D'>Point taken.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p=
> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rumsfeld was still righ=
t (for a change!)=C2=A0 </span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
Wingdings;color:#1F497D'>J</span><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;b=
order-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sa=
ns-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca [mailto:natu=
rens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David & Alison Webster<b=
r><b>Sent:</b> February 4, 2016 2:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> naturens@chebucto.ns.=
ca<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticid=
e Atrazine in Canada: a re-evaluation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi John &am=
p; All,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> Th=
at cultural shift, with overkill, has been in place since day one but espec=
ially since Silent Spring: ~1960. Ninety five % (my estimate) of research e=
ffort is a heavy burden of proof. Don't trust me. Read some of these papers=
=2E Or consult the Soil Sci. Pub I mentioned. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> If those who manufacture tooth paste, =
mouth wash, shampoo, paint, cutlery, dishes... had to leap through a compar=
able battery of flaming hoops then we would all go unwashed, have rotten te=
eth, bad breath, live in unpainted hovels and die young, hungry a=
nd cold as in the good old days.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal> Yt, DW<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D=
'border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin=
-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","san=
s-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style=3D'font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:nhungjoh=
n@eastlink.ca" title=3D"nhungjohn@eastlink.ca">John and Nhung</a> <o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10=
=2E0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style=3D'font-=
size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:naturens@c=
hebucto.ns.ca" title=3D"naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</a=
> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Thursday, Februar=
y 04, 2016 12:36 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:=
</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"=
'> RE: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in Canad=
a: a re-evaluation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:=
p> </o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think we need a cultu=
ral shift, where the burden of proof should be on proponents to show that a=
potentially harmful activity or product causes no harm. Too often, n=
ow, those affected are expected to produce evidence to prove said harm, and=
that is usually unfair.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><=
o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
=2E0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>100% incontroverti=
ble proof is almost always a theoretical construct, and =E2=80=9CNo evidenc=
e=E2=80=9D of a phenomenon has far too often been twisted to imply that the=
phenomenon doesn=E2=80=99t exist. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rea=
lly, all =E2=80=9CNo evidence=E2=80=9D means is, =E2=80=9CNo convincing pro=
of, so we don=E2=80=99t know for sure.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-=
serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As Donnie Rumsfeld saif, =E2=80=9CThe absence of evidence is not evidenc=
e of absence.=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:=
p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B=
5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=
=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:=
</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'> naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca [mailto:naturens-owner@chebu=
cto.ns.ca] <b>On Behalf Of </b>David & Alison Webster<br><b>Sent:</b> F=
ebruary 4, 2016 12:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> naturens@chebucto.ns.ca<br><b>Subjec=
t:</b> Re: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in C=
anada: a re-evaluation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Nick & All,<o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> With respect to A=
trazine, and pesticides in general, I would guess that roughly 95% of =
the research effort has been directed to environmental protection. Have a l=
ook at Pesticides in the Soil Environment: Processes, Impacts, and Modeling=
, Soil Sci. Soc Amer. Book Series No. 2., ed. H.H.Cheng, 530 pp.,1990.<o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal> Spray and weigh trials are fairly st=
raightforward but making sure that materials and their degredation products=
do not lead directly to environmental harm is a huge undertaking.<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yt, DW, Kentville<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:no=
ne;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75=
pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=
----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:fernhillns@gmail.c=
om" title=3D"fernhillns@gmail.com">Nicholas Hill</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" =
title=3D"naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</a> <o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Thursday, February 04, 2016 7:32=
AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span=
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [NatureNS=
] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in Canada: a re-evaluati=
on<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>David, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal>no confusion here. Listserve focus is on nature not human safety. At=
razine article deals with human safety concerns not biodiversity.<o:p></o:p=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>If we want to take a stand on pesticid=
es it would be for their biodiversity implications of which there are tons.=
Roundup is an example but there are many<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>showing impacts of other pesticides on native bees and other p=
ollinators.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Nick<o:p></o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/04-1291/=
abstract">http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1890/04-1291/abstract</a><o=
:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://www.jstor.org/stab=
le/40983228?seq=3D1#page_scan_tab_contents">http://www.jstor.org/stable/409=
83228?seq=3D1#page_scan_tab_contents</a><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, Feb 3, 2016 at 9:0=
2 PM, David & Alison Webster <<a href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com" =
target=3D"_blank">dwebster@glinx.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Nick,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l> The item dealt with Atrazine not Roundup. Best no=
t to confuse matters. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>D=
ave W <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>----- Original Message ---=
-- <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;m=
argin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'bac=
kground:#E4E4E4'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sa=
ns-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
" title=3D"fernhillns@gmail.com">Nicholas Hill</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" title=3D"naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</=
a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Wednesday, Febru=
ary 03, 2016 8:12 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject=
:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif=
"'> Re: [NatureNS] Public consultation re use of pesticide Atrazine in Cana=
da: a re-evaluation<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p>Gyphosate (roundup) going under radar=
despite the lethal impacts of amphibian larvae (ca 98% kill) from the surf=
actant used to get the pesticide across the plant's cuticle. <br>Not suppos=
ed to be used near water courses but amphibians are in swampy woods.<br>As =
naturalists, impacts on natural world are our major responsibility. Physici=
ans (royal...Ontario. .forget the association) did take a stand again=
st recreational and household usage of pesticide on the basis of human heal=
th risk. We can stand up for nature.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Nick<o:p></o:p></p><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 3, 2016 5:59 PM, "N Robinson" <=
<a href=3D"mailto:nrobbyn@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">nrobbyn@gmail.com</a=
>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hello everyone,<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'> A member of the Quebec branch =
of the Sierra Club just sent me an email regarding Canada's Pest Management=
Regulatory Agency doing a re-evaluation of the pesticide Atrazine (announc=
ed December 15 2015).<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Some of you,=
more knowledgeable than I, might want to send them some feedback.<br><br>&=
nbsp;<a href=3D"http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/pest/part/consultations/_rev=
2015-11/rev2015-11-eng.php" target=3D"_blank">http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-sp=
c/pest/part/consultations/_rev2015-11/rev2015-11-eng.php</a><o:p></o:p></p>=
<h1><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Re-evaluation Note REV2015-11, Special=
Review of Atrazine: Proposed Decision for Consultation</span><o:p></o:p></=
h1><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Nan=
cy<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p>No virus found in this message.=
<br>Checked by AVG - <a href=3D"http://www.avg.com" target=3D"_blank">www.a=
vg.com</a><br>Version: 2016.0.7441 / Virus Database: 4522/11542 - Release D=
ate: 02/02/16<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
o:p> </o:p></p></div><p>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by =
AVG - www.avg.com<br>Version: 2016.0.744=
1 / Virus Database: 4522/11552 - Release Date: 02/04/16<o:p></o:p></p></blo=
ckquote><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D1 cellpadding=3D0 style=3D'b=
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th:78.75pt;border:none;padding:11.25pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal style=3D'margin-top:22.5pt'><a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email"=
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a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D470 style=3D'width:352.5pt;border:none;pa=
dding:15.0pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-top:22=
=2E5pt;line-height:13.5pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Ari=
al","sans-serif";color:#41424E'>This email has been sent from a virus-free =
computer protected by Avast. <br><a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email=
" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'color:#4453EA'>www.avast.com</span></a> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table><p>No virus found in this message.<=
br>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<br>Versi=
on: 2016.0.7441 / Virus Database: 4522/11552 - Release Date: 02/04/16<o:p><=
/o:p></p></blockquote></div>
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