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> Just a rhetorical question but I wonder h
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I have very much appreciated the discussion about old growth forests on
NatureNS during the past few days. Without any formal training in this
field, I find it difficult at times to understand all the complexity
involved. Even more perplexing is coming up with a strategy to bring =
about
change.=20
=20
About 15 years ago, a small group of monks had a monastery in a mature
forest not too many kilometers from where I now live. They asked Irving =
not
to clearcut the land surrounding their peaceful enclave. Despite a =
campaign
that received national attention, Irving ignored their request and the =
monks
had to abandon their monastery. I repeat this story because forest
management is more than politics and it is more than science. It =
requires a
deep respect for all living beings that takes equal precedence with =
social,
economic, and scientific claims. The failure of the forest industry and
government to respect the need of a few monks on a few acres of mature
forest to pray in quiet and in communion with nature, is a testimony to =
the
materialistic greed that governs forest policy.=20
=20
It is this pervasive materialism that makes the road to change a =
difficult
one.
=20
John
=20
From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca =
[mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca]
On Behalf Of Donna Crossland
Sent: October-23-17 19:45
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
Subject: Re: [NatureNS] observation and dogma
=20
Thank you, Wayne. You and Chris have presented a very succinct and
practical response to the need for old growth on our landscapes. Our
forests were once dominated in late successional species and mature to =
old
age classes (the timber records speak to this and other archival =
documents).
=20
Moose are forest dwellers. Deer benefit from it for winter shelter, but =
can
otherwise get along without it. There's a wealth of information on =
those
species. I was too busy and too vexed to answer the exchange earlier. =
We
already have plenty of forest industry advocates for clearcutting, and =
we
listen to a litany of inadequate justifications for the resultant young
scrubby forests that we now see everywhere throughout NS. I don't =
expect to
see such comments on NatureNS. Most naturalists in the 40 + age =
category
have viewed unprecedented, rampant destruction of NS forests, and we =
realize
the toll on wildlife, understory flora, lichens, mosses, and fungal =
networks
that we are only beginning to understand. Species that took a century, =
or
perhaps several, to establish and thrive; wiped out over night. A =
harvest
operator telling me of flying squirrels landing on his machine at night =
as
they mowed down trees, some containing the cavities where shelter had =
been
provided. He was chuckling when he recounted the story. I suppose =
that's
better than weeping, or is it? =20
=20
A now out-dated line from my thesis: "In Nova Scotia it is estimated =
that
0.0008 % of the forest is old growth (Mosseler et al.
2003). Old growth was defined as stands in which the dominant trees have =
an
age of greater than 150 years (Mosseler et al. 2003)."=20
=20
How can we possibly think, even for a single moment, that our forest =
species
are not suffering under such a severe lack of old growth?=20
=20
Donna
=20
On 2017-10-23 5:16 AM, Wayne P. Neily wrote:
Hello David,
=20
You are quite right that it can be difficult to change the mind of any =
of us
who have a fixed opinion on something and have not been able to study =
the
question in the field. =20
I'm not sure that anyone has claimed that ancient woodland is the best
type of cover - certainly it is not if you are a moose. What most
conservationists and naturalists seek is a good diversity of the forest
types and stages naturally occurring in a given area, since each stage =
and
type has trees, shrubs, herbaceous plants, birds and other animals =
adapted
to it. All these stages are important to ensure biological diversity =
and to
protect threatened species. Old-growth forests may have less diversity =
of
species than some others (edge habitats usually have the most =
diversity),
but for those that live there they are essential, and our focus needs to =
be
on protecting them because they are the most endangered forest =
ecosystems
here and they take the longest to regenerate. Certainly there is no
shortage of the early forest stages preferred by deer and moose. It =
seems
that our forest managers are making some effort to see that "harvested"
areas grow back to a sort of forest that will provide more fibre in the
shortest time but have little or no interest in allowing it to grow to
subsequent successional stages or ensuring that all forest types are
represented. I'll leave it to the forest ecologists on the list to give
more details if they wish.
=20
=20
Wayne P. Neily=20
Tremont, Kings Co., Nova Scotia
=20
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep.=20
But I have promises to keep,=20
And miles to go before I sleep." - Robert Frost, 1923 [Stopping by Woods =
on
a Snowy Evening]=20
"Think globally, Act locally." - Ren=E9 Dubos, 1972.=20
=20
=20
_____ =20
From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca =
<mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca>
<mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca> <naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca> =
on
behalf of David <mailto:dwebster@glinx.com> <dwebster@glinx.com>
Sent: October 22, 2017 21:14
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca <mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca>=20
Cc: David Webster
Subject: [NatureNS] observation and dogma=20
=20
Hello All,=20
While clearing some junk out of the basement recently I came across =
a
gear which I made from scraps, decades before e-mail,(~1975 ?) for
stereoscopic viewing of air photos. It consisted of two mirrors held 7"
apart in slots cut at a 45 degree angle in thin boards, one mirror =
facing up
& one down. A low table lamp is required so that the portion of air =
photo
below the down facing mirror is illuminated.=20
In use, the area of interest was placed below the down facing mirror =
and
a full size image would then appear in the up facing mirror. For =
purposes of
visualization let the down facing mirror be on the left. The =
corresponding
area of the second air photo would then be placed one eye spacing to the
right of the up facing mirror. If the photos are arranged with edges
parallel then the whole assembly can be moved around without adjustment. =
For viewing I used two cheap reading lenses about 2" in diameter.
Tilting one or both a bit, one over the up mirror, one over the right =
air
photo enabled fine distance adjustment for stereoscopic viewing.
=20
With this long preamble out of the way, and with likely most =
naturensers
reading something else, I can now get to the point.=20
A few years after I joined Naturens the subject of expensive
stereoscopic viewers came up and I mentioned having designed and made =
this
device from disposables.=20
Observation: it worked fine even for those who had never previously =
seen
stereoscopic images of air photos.
Dogma: someone chimed in with the objection "that can't possibly =
work."=20
=20
I have noticed this conflict between observation and dogma many =
times on
Naturens, especially in recent posts with respect to Old Growth and =
wildlife
e.g Moose. Over the years I have walked over a lot of woodland, =
sometimes
for hunting but mostly for the fun of seeing what was over the next rise
etc. And without exception, woodland of large widely spaced trees is =
country
either avoided by animals or crossed in a bee line. Disturbed cover, on =
the
other hand, clearcut or selectively cut by human, by wind throw or by =
Spruce
Budworm quickly become more alive. Former Beaver desert became Beaver =
heaven
when the Budworm killed Fir and Spruce and generated space for hardwood
thickets. Twenty or so suckers which sprouted from the stump of a large =
Ash
which I cut January 2017 were gnawed to stubs by July.=20
Just a rhetorical question but I wonder how someone comes to the
conclusion that ancient woodland is the best possible type of cover ?
YT, DW, Kentville=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm=
_campai
gn=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient>=20
Virus-free.
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm=
_campai
gn=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> www.avast.com=20
=20
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I have very much =
appreciated the discussion about old growth forests on NatureNS during =
the past few days. Without any formal training in this field, I find it =
difficult at times to understand all the complexity involved. Even more =
perplexing is coming up with a strategy to bring about change. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>About 15 years =
ago, a small group of monks had a monastery in a mature forest not too =
many kilometers from where I now live. They asked Irving not to clearcut =
the land surrounding their peaceful enclave. Despite a campaign that =
received national attention, Irving ignored their request and the monks =
had to abandon their monastery. I repeat this story because forest =
management is more than politics and it is more than science. It =
requires a deep respect for all living beings that takes equal =
precedence with social, economic, and scientific claims. The failure of =
the forest industry and government to respect the need of a few monks on =
a few acres of mature forest to pray in quiet and in communion with =
nature, is a testimony to the materialistic greed that governs forest =
policy. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>It is this =
pervasive materialism that makes the road to change a difficult =
one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>John<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:windowtext;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></=
span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'color:windowtext'> naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca =
[mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Donna =
Crossland<br><b>Sent:</b> October-23-17 19:45<br><b>To:</b> =
naturens@chebucto.ns.ca<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NatureNS] observation =
and dogma<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Thank you, Wayne. You =
and Chris have presented a very succinct and practical response to the =
need for old growth on our landscapes. Our forests were once =
dominated in late successional species and mature to old age classes =
(the timber records speak to this and other archival documents). =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Moose are forest =
dwellers. Deer benefit from it for winter shelter, but can =
otherwise get along without it. There's a wealth of information on =
those species. I was too busy and too vexed to answer the exchange =
earlier. We already have plenty of forest industry advocates for =
clearcutting, and we listen to a litany of inadequate justifications for =
the resultant young scrubby forests that we now see everywhere =
throughout NS. I don't expect to see such comments on =
NatureNS. Most naturalists in the 40 + age category have viewed =
unprecedented, rampant destruction of NS forests, and we realize the =
toll on wildlife, understory flora, lichens, mosses, and fungal networks =
that we are only beginning to understand. Species that took a =
century, or perhaps several, to establish and thrive; wiped out over =
night. A harvest operator telling me of flying squirrels landing =
on his machine at night as they mowed down trees, some containing the =
cavities where shelter had been provided. He was chuckling when he =
recounted the story. I suppose that's better than weeping, or is =
it? <o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p>A now out-dated line =
from my thesis: <span class=3Dfontstyle0><i>"In Nova Scotia =
it is estimated that 0.0008 % of the forest is old growth (Mosseler =
</i></span><span class=3Dfontstyle2><i>et al.</i></span><i><br><span =
class=3Dfontstyle0>2003). Old growth was defined as stands in which the =
dominant trees have an age of greater than 150 years (Mosseler =
</span><span class=3Dfontstyle2>et al. </span><span =
class=3Dfontstyle0>2003)."</span></i> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p>How can we possibly think, =
even for a single moment, that our forest species are not suffering =
under such a severe lack of old growth? =
<o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p>Donna<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
2017-10-23 5:16 AM, Wayne P. Neily =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div =
id=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper><p><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hello =
David,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>You are quite right that it can be difficult =
to change the mind of any of us who have a fixed opinion on =
something and have not been able to study the question in the =
field. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> I'm not sure that anyone has claimed =
that ancient woodland is the best type of cover - certainly it is not if =
you are a moose. What most conservationists and naturalists seek =
is a good diversity of the forest types and stages naturally occurring =
in a given area, since each stage and type has trees, shrubs, herbaceous =
plants, birds and other animals adapted to it. All these stages =
are important to ensure biological diversity and to protect threatened =
species. Old-growth forests may have less diversity of =
species than some others (edge habitats usually have the most =
diversity), but for those that live there they are essential, and our =
focus needs to be on protecting them because they are the most =
endangered forest ecosystems here and they take the longest to =
regenerate. Certainly there is no shortage of the early forest =
stages preferred by deer and moose. It seems that our forest =
managers are making some effort to see that "harvested" areas =
grow back to a sort of forest that will provide more fibre in the =
shortest time but have little or no interest in allowing it to grow to =
subsequent successional stages or ensuring that all forest types are =
represented. I'll leave it to the forest ecologists on the list to =
give more details if they wish.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div =
id=3DSignature><div id=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Wayne P. Neily =
<br>Tremont, Kings Co., Nova Scotia<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <br><span =
class=3Decxapple-style-span> "The woods are lovely, dark and =
deep. </span><br><span class=3Decxapple-style-span>But I have promises =
to keep, </span><br><span class=3Decxapple-style-span>And miles to go =
before I sleep." - Robert Frost, 1923 [Stopping by Woods on a Snowy =
Evening] </span><br><br><span class=3Decxapple-style-span>"Think =
globally, Act locally." - Ren=E9 Dubos, 1972. </span><br><span =
class=3Decxapple-style-span> =
</span><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"98%" =
align=3Dcenter></span></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.=
ca</a> <a =
href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca"><naturens-owner@chebucto=
.ns.ca></a> on behalf of David <a =
href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com"><dwebster@glinx.com></a><br><b>S=
ent:</b> October 22, 2017 21:14<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca">naturens@chebucto.ns.ca</a><br><b=
>Cc:</b> David Webster<br><b>Subject:</b> [NatureNS] observation and =
dogma<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hello All, =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> While clearing some junk out of =
the basement recently I came across a gear which I made from scraps, =
decades before e-mail,(~1975 ?) for stereoscopic viewing of air photos. =
It consisted of two mirrors held 7" apart in slots cut at a =
45 degree angle in thin boards, one mirror facing up & one down. A =
low table lamp is required so that the portion of air photo below the =
down facing mirror is =
illuminated. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> In use, the area of =
interest was placed below the down facing mirror and a full size image =
would then appear in the up facing mirror. For purposes of visualization =
let the down facing mirror be on the left. The corresponding area of the =
second air photo would then be placed one eye spacing to the right of =
the up facing mirror. If the photos are arranged with edges parallel =
then the whole assembly can be moved around without =
adjustment. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> =
For viewing I used two cheap reading lenses about 2" in =
diameter. Tilting one or both a bit, one over the up mirror, one over =
the right air photo enabled fine distance adjustment for stereoscopic =
viewing.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> With this long preamble out of =
the way, and with likely most naturensers reading something else, I can =
now get to the point. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> A few years after I =
joined Naturens the subject of expensive stereoscopic viewers came up =
and I mentioned having designed and made this device from =
disposables. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> Observation: it =
worked fine even for those who had never previously seen stereoscopic =
images of air photos.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> Dogma: =
someone chimed in with the objection "that can't possibly =
work." <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> I have =
noticed this conflict between observation and dogma many times on =
Naturens, especially in recent posts with respect to Old Growth and =
wildlife e.g Moose. Over the years I have walked over a lot of woodland, =
sometimes for hunting but mostly for the fun of seeing what was over the =
next rise etc. And without exception, woodland of large widely spaced =
trees is country either avoided by animals or crossed in a bee line. =
Disturbed cover, on the other hand, clearcut or selectively cut by =
human, by wind throw or by Spruce Budworm quickly become more alive. =
Former Beaver desert became Beaver heaven when the Budworm killed Fir =
and Spruce and generated space for hardwood thickets. Twenty or so =
suckers which sprouted from the stump of a large Ash which I cut January =
2017 were gnawed to stubs by =
July. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> Just a rhetorical question but =
I wonder how someone comes to the conclusion that ancient woodland is =
the best possible type of cover ?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>YT, DW, =
Kentville <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D1 cellpadding=3D0 style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE =
1.0pt'><tr><td width=3D55 =
style=3D'width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:9.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
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target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'text-decoration:none'><img border=3D0 =
width=3D46 height=3D29 style=3D'width:.4791in;height:.302in' =
id=3D"_x0000_i1026" =
src=3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-ora=
nge-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" =
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.75pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'line-height:13.5pt'><span =
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href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=
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target=3D"_blank"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#4453EA'>w=
ww.avast.com</span></a><span =
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