next message in archive
no next message in thread
previous message in archive
previous message in thread
Index of Subjects
> numbers and e --Apple-Mail-55309F55-DCE6-4B3D-AEED-6961BFE450C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nurure? I say YES! Sent from my iPad > On Dec 20, 2014, at 3:58 PM, Nicholas Hill <fernhillns@gmail.com> wrote: >=20 > Is this narure? > Nick >=20 >> On Dec 20, 2014 3:54 PM, "David & Alison Webster" <dwebster@glinx.com> wr= ote: >> Hi Steve & All, Dec 20, 2014 >> Systems which do not work well, such as the Wales site, do not prove t= hat pumped storage can not work anymore than I can prove, by direct demonstr= ation, that music can not be extracted from a violin. >>=20 >> For pumped storage to work reliably one must have volume sufficient to= ride out any prolonged period of calm. An account of a system which does wo= rk, >> cut from a 2012 e-mail is pasted below. >>=20 >> START OF PASTE >> Re Ludington my letter (pasted below) to the Advertiser Editor (Not us= ed) contains the essentials. Also see >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant >> START OF PASTE >> Dear Editor: Sept 24, 2012 >> According to Warren Peck (Register, Can we trust CANWEA ads ?,Aug 2), e= lectrical storage is still in the research and development stage. >> Well, the pumped storage facility in Ludington, Michigan was built >> between 1967 and 1975, is still functioning and has a capacity of 1872 >> Megawatts. It has served so well that an $800 million upgrade is about to= be undertaken. >> There is always room for research and development but pumped storage i= s proven technology. According to Kraushaar & Ristinen (Energy and problems o= f >> a technical society, 2nd ed., 1993) the efficiency of pumped storage is >> typically 64% as compared to 36% for optimum generation by heat. >> They also note that the Ludington reservoir can store 15 million kW.hr= >> of energy. Based on a recent article (Chron.Herald. Sept 19) the average >> residence in Canada uses 10,389 KW.hr/year. So that one reservoir stores e= nough energy to supply 17,000 residences for one month; hardly prototype. >>=20 >> Yours truly, David H. Webster 678-7824 >> END OF PASTE >>=20 >> and an account of another site from Ivan Smith, Oct 18, 2012 >> START OF PASTE\\\ >> I'm familiar with the 174 megawatt Sir Adam Beck Pump Generating Station a= t Niagara Falls http://www.opg.com/power/hydro/niagara_plant_group/adambeck2= .asp built in the mid-1950s, when I was working at the Nova Scotia Light an= d Power Company. http://ns1758.ca/electric/electricpwr14.html There were n= umerous reports about this large pumped storage plant in the technical journ= als that NSL&P purchased and circulated among its employees. Pumped storage= was not new even then, but the Niagara plant attracted special attention be= cause it was/is very large. The Beck Pumped Storage Plant has now been oper= ating successfully for sixty years. There are dozens of such plants around t= he world. -- >> END OF PASTE\\\\\\\\\\ >>=20 >> In addition, as described by Kraushaar & Ristinen (Energy and problems= of >> a technical society, 2nd ed., 1993), Chapter 8, the same hardware can be u= sed for both pumping and power generation and natural waterways need not be i= nvolved; water being moved between upper and lower reservoirs. One system, b= eing constructed in California in 1993 to move water between a surface reser= voir and a lower one excavated from solid rock was designed to store 1.12 mi= llion kW. >>=20 >> Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville >>=20 >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Shaw" <srshaw@Dal.Ca> >> To: <naturens@chebucto.ns.ca> >> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 2:00 PM >> Subject: RE: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] light >>=20 >>=20 >>> Hi Dave, >>> A larger problem is that currently and forseeably wind is relatively sma= ll potatoes and intermittent, and putting in many wind farms doesn't even re= motely average out the power fluctuations. You also mentioned somewhere tha= t this fluctuation could be solved by storing electrical energy during an en= ergy glut by pumping water uphill into a storage reservoir (then recovering i= t in times of increased demand by letting the water run back down, powering t= urbines). This rang a bell as this year we had visited the Dinorwig power s= tation in Snowdonia Natl Park (Wales), built discretely inside a mountain, t= hat operates on just this principle with a large water differential height o= f ~500 meters. It is an enormous project but can't even out daily fluctuati= ons in demand even with 3 other similar smaller stations running. It is use= d these days mainly to add a surge of power to the national grid at the end o= f popular TV programs in UK like East-Enders, when literally millions of vie= wers head simultaneously for the kitchen to plug in their electric kettles f= or cups of tea -- really: Dinorwig alone can go from 0 to full 1.3 GWatt pow= er in 12 seconds to cope with this, and can supply some power for a few hour= s. The turbines are reversed at night when electricity is cheaper, to pump= water back up to the upper storage lake. >>>=20 >>> There's some info on Dinorwig in Wikipedia, but the point of this note i= s that in looking this up, I came across a book that discusses all this with= numbers and excellent graphics in the context of the recent UK current prac= tical energy mix: David J. C. Mackay, 'Sustainable Energy without the hot ai= r', 2008-9. He discusses how many Welsh and Scottish pairs of lakes/lochs y= ou could feasibly convert like Dinorwig to even out all the variability in p= ower demand if you had the will to do so, and concludes that it simply can't= be done in UK (not enough useful lake pairs with good differential heights,= never mind the politics). Instead, glut electricity needs to be exported t= o some other form of storage, and he discusses how this is more easily possi= ble e.g. for Denmark with its links to Scandanavia. >>>=20 >>> You don't even have to ask Santa for it, as it can be downloaded for fre= e as a PDF from >>> http://www.withouthotair.com/download.html >>> I've only just skimmed a bit of it, but it looks good from what I've rea= d so far, and could save us all from unsupported generalizations as to what i= s practically possible in all of this. Some things just aren't. >>> Steve (Hfx) >>> ________________________________________ >>> From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca [naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] on b= ehalf of David & Alison Webster [dwebster@glinx.com] >>> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 4:13 PM >>> To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca >>> Subject: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] light >>>=20 >>>>> ... Wind and water could produce nearly all of our electricity if th= e will were there to do it. Because our governments have fumbled the wind ge= neration ball it is a real mess; 26 different sets of standards for setback (= if I recall correctly) in NS alone and these change at the whim of fear and r= umor... << >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ----- >>> No virus found in this message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8773 - Release Date: 12/20/1= 4 --Apple-Mail-55309F55-DCE6-4B3D-AEED-6961BFE450C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Nurure? I say YES!<br><br>Sent f= rom my iPad</div><div><br>On Dec 20, 2014, at 3:58 PM, Nicholas Hill <<a h= ref=3D"mailto:fernhillns@gmail.com">fernhillns@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><= br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><p>Is this narure?<br> Nick</p> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Dec 20, 2014 3:54 PM, "David & Alison Webs= ter" <dwebster@glinx.com> wr= ote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg= in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Steve & Al= l, &nbs= p; Dec 20, 2014<br> Systems which do not work well, such as the Wales site, do not p= rove that pumped storage can not work anymore than I can prove, by direct de= monstration, that music can not be extracted from a violin.<br> <br> For pumped storage to work reliably one must have volume suffic= ient to ride out any prolonged period of calm. An account of a system which d= oes work,<br> cut from a 2012 e-mail is pasted below.<br> <br> START OF PASTE<br> Re Ludington my letter (pasted below) to the Advertiser Editor (= Not used) contains the essentials. Also see<br> <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant= " target=3D"_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/<u></u>Ludington_Pumped_Sto= rage_<u></u>Power_Plant</a><br> START OF PASTE<br> Dear Editor: &= nbsp; Sept 24, 2012<br> According to Warren Peck (Register, Can we trust CANWEA ads ?,A= ug 2), electrical storage is still in the research and development stage.<br= > Well, the pumped storage facility in Ludington, Michigan was bu= ilt<br> between 1967 and 1975, is still functioning and has a capacity of 1872<br> Megawatts. It has served so well that an $800 million upgrade is about to be= undertaken.<br> There is always room for research and development but pumped st= orage is proven technology. According to Kraushaar & Ristinen (Energy an= d problems of<br> a technical society, 2nd ed., 1993) the efficiency of pumped storage is<br> typically 64% as compared to 36% for optimum generation by heat.<br> They also note that the Ludington reservoir can store 15 millio= n kW.hr<br> of energy. Based on a recent article (Chron.Herald. Sept 19) the average<br>= residence in Canada uses 10,389 KW.hr/year= . So that one reservoir stores enough energy to supply 17,000 residences for= one month; hardly prototype.<br> <br> Yours truly, David H. Webster 678-7824<br> END OF PASTE<br> <br> and an account of another site from Ivan Smith, Oct 18, 2012<br> START OF PASTE\\\<br> I'm familiar with the 174 megawatt Sir Adam Beck Pump Generating Station at N= iagara Falls <a href=3D"http://www.opg.com/power/hydro/niagara_plant_group/a= dambeck2.asp" target=3D"_blank">http://www.opg.com/power/<u></u>hydro/niagar= a_plant_group/<u></u>adambeck2.asp</a> built in the mid-1950s, when I w= as working at the Nova Scotia Light and Power Company. <a href=3D"http= ://ns1758.ca/electric/electricpwr14.html" target=3D"_blank">http://ns1758.ca= /electric/<u></u>electricpwr14.html</a> There were numerous reports ab= out this large pumped storage plant in the technical journals that NSL&P= purchased and circulated among its employees. Pumped storage was not n= ew even then, but the Niagara plant attracted special attention because it w= as/is very large. The Beck Pumped Storage Plant has now been operating= successfully for sixty years. There are dozens of such plants around t= he world. --<br> END OF PASTE\\\\\\\\\\<br> <br> In addition, as described by Kraushaar & Ristinen (Energy a= nd problems of<br> a technical society, 2nd ed., 1993), Chapter 8, the same hardware can be use= d for both pumping and power generation and natural waterways need not be in= volved; water being moved between upper and lower reservoirs. One system, be= ing constructed in California in 1993 to move water between a surface reserv= oir and a lower one excavated from solid rock was designed to store 1.12 mil= lion kW.<br> <br> Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville<br> <br> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Shaw" <<a href=3D"mailto:srsh= aw@Dal.Ca">srshaw@Dal.Ca</a>><br> To: <<a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" target=3D"_blank">naturen= s@chebucto.ns.ca</a>><br> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2014 2:00 PM<br> Subject: RE: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] light<br> <br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> Hi Dave,<br> A larger problem is that currently and forseeably wind is relatively small p= otatoes and intermittent, and putting in many wind farms doesn't even remote= ly average out the power fluctuations. You also mentioned somewhere th= at this fluctuation could be solved by storing electrical energy during an e= nergy glut by pumping water uphill into a storage reservoir (then recovering= it in times of increased demand by letting the water run back down, powerin= g turbines). This rang a bell as this year we had visited the Dinorwig= power station in Snowdonia Natl Park (Wales), built discretely inside a mou= ntain, that operates on just this principle with a large water differential h= eight of ~500 meters. It is an enormous project but can't even out dai= ly fluctuations in demand even with 3 other similar smaller stations running= . It is used these days mainly to add a surge of power to the national= grid at the end of popular TV programs in UK like East-Enders, when literal= ly millions of viewers head simultaneously for the kitchen to plug in their e= lectric kettles for cups of tea -- really: Dinorwig alone can go from 0 to f= ull 1.3 GWatt power in 12 seconds to cope with this, and can supply some pow= er for a few hours. The turbines are reversed at night when elec= tricity is cheaper, to pump water back up to the upper storage lake.<br> <br> There's some info on Dinorwig in Wikipedia, but the point of this note is th= at in looking this up, I came across a book that discusses all this with num= bers and excellent graphics in the context of the recent UK current practica= l energy mix: David J. C. Mackay, 'Sustainable Energy without the hot air', 2= 008-9. He discusses how many Welsh and Scottish pairs of lakes/lochs y= ou could feasibly convert like Dinorwig to even out all the variability in p= ower demand if you had the will to do so, and concludes that it simply can't= be done in UK (not enough useful lake pairs with good differential heights,= never mind the politics). Instead, glut electricity needs to be expor= ted to some other form of storage, and he discusses how this is more easily p= ossible e.g. for Denmark with its links to Scandanavia.<br> <br> You don't even have to ask Santa for it, as it can be downloaded for free as= a PDF from<br> <a href=3D"http://www.withouthotair.com/download.html" target=3D"_blank">htt= p://www.withouthotair.com/<u></u>download.html</a><br> I've only just skimmed a bit of it, but it looks good from what I've read so= far, and could save us all from unsupported generalizations as to what is p= ractically possible in all of this. Some things just aren't.<br> Steve (Hfx)<br> ______________________________<u></u>__________<br> From: <a href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca" target=3D"_blank">nat= urens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns= .ca" target=3D"_blank">naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca</a><u></u>] on behalf o= f David & Alison Webster [<a href=3D"mailto:dwebster@glinx.com" target=3D= "_blank">dwebster@glinx.com</a>]<br> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 4:13 PM<br> To: <a href=3D"mailto:naturens@chebucto.ns.ca" target=3D"_blank">naturens@ch= ebucto.ns.ca</a><br> Subject: Long again: Re: Long: Re: [NatureNS] light<br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> ... Wind and water could produce nearly all of our electricity if the= will were there to do it. Because our governments have fumbled the wind gen= eration ball it is a real mess; 26 different sets of standards for setback (= if I recall correctly) in NS alone and these change at the whim of fear and r= umor... <<<br> </blockquote></blockquote> <br> <br> -----<br> No virus found in this message.<br> Checked by AVG - <a href=3D"http://www.avg.com" target=3D"_blank">www.avg.co= m</a><br> Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4253/8773 - Release Date: 12/20/14<br= > <br> </blockquote> <br> </blockquote></div> </div></blockquote></body></html>= --Apple-Mail-55309F55-DCE6-4B3D-AEED-6961BFE450C0--
next message in archive
no next message in thread
previous message in archive
previous message in thread
Index of Subjects