[NatureNS] Hoary and Common Redpolls one species?

From: David & Alison Webster <dwebster@glinx.com>
To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
References: <990B3EE94E8A61448C998FEBAEAFC0240B046904@HCXDSPM2.ca.lmco.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 20:24:13 -0300
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Hi Lance & All,                                Mar 31, 2015
    The recurrent lumping & splitting of many species clusters is =
perhaps an indirect consequence of the 'type specimen' concept. The =
notion being that, if you just do it carefully enough, all species can =
be defined in ways which are distinct from other similar species. This =
is just a form of looking in the dark closet for the black cat that is =
not there; and finding it.

    As G.G. Simpson, Prof. of Vertebrate Paleontology at the Museum of =
Comparative Zoology of Harvard Univ., observed (1967, Biology and the =
Public Good) "...organisms cannot be truthfully or usefully considered =
in terms of types."=20

    One should be prepared to accept that within some broadly defined =
species there may be many different branches which are not quite =
distinct and which, given the opportunity, can produce fertile =
offspring.

Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville


   =20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Laviolette, Lance (EXP)=20
  To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca=20
  Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:08 PM
  Subject: RE: [NatureNS] Hoary and Common Redpolls one species?


  Hi everyone,

  =20

  Ultimately the question of "what is a species" currently comes down to =
the determination of how much DNA difference is enough. The paper =
doesn't say that Hoary Redpolls and Common redpolls have identical DNA, =
it says that the DNA is extremely similar. Ultimately the American =
Ornithologists Union, which is the body which makes the final decision =
in North America, will decide if the DNA is similar enough to lump the =
two or not.

  =20

  There is certainly no harm in continuing to report the two 'forms' of =
redpolls regardless of the species status. The Ipswich form of the =
Savannah Sparrow is an example of this that is near and dear to the =
heart of Nova Scotia birders. Who knows, in the distant future new =
methods and/or decision makers may declare that the difference between =
Common and Hoary Redpolls is in fact not as similar as this paper has =
concluded. If that time arrives then people will wish they recorded them =
separately.

  =20

  All the best,

  =20

  Lance

  =20

  Lance Laviolette

  Glen Robertson, Ontario

  =20

  =20

  =20

  From: naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca =
[mailto:naturens-owner@chebucto.ns.ca] On Behalf Of N Robinson
  Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 2:21 PM
  To: naturens@chebucto.ns.ca
  Subject: EXTERNAL: [NatureNS] Hoary and common redpolls one species?

  =20

  This just in:

  =
http://blog.allaboutbirds.org/2015/03/30/from-many-one-how-many-species-o=
f-redpolls-are-there/

  Nancy

  No virus found in this message.
  Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  Version: 2015.0.5863 / Virus Database: 4321/9424 - Release Date: =
03/31/15

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<DIV>Hi Lance &amp; All,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mar 31, 2015</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The&nbsp;recurrent lumping &amp; splitting of =
many=20
species clusters is perhaps an indirect consequence of the&nbsp;'type =
specimen'=20
concept. The notion being that, if you just do it carefully =
enough,&nbsp;all=20
species can be defined in ways&nbsp;which are distinct from other =
similar=20
species. This is just a form of looking in the dark closet for the black =
cat=20
that is not there; and finding it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As G.G. Simpson, Prof. of Vertebrate =
Paleontology at the=20
Museum of Comparative Zoology of Harvard Univ.,&nbsp;observed (1967, =
Biology and=20
the Public Good) "...organisms cannot be truthfully or usefully =
considered in=20
terms of types." </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; One should be prepared to accept that within =
some=20
broadly defined&nbsp;species there may be many different branches which =
are not=20
quite distinct and which, given the opportunity, can produce fertile=20
offspring.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Yt, Dave Webster, Kentville</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
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